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Mar 07, 2011, 10:49 PM // 22:49
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#41 |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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We do care what autoattack damage is. It is zero investment on your skillbar.
If you want to complain about scaling of Paragon [email protected] nonelite attack skills (other than Cruel Spear/Wearying Spear/Blazing Spear) that's different than arguing for more attack damage/DPS. It already does more damage than swords not using Galrath/Body Blow/Final Thrust/Standing Slash/Dragon Slash/Quivering Blade seeing how cripslash->Gash is +19 or so unlike Eviscerate-Executioner's Strike. Keep in mind with a 33% IAS (especially Soldier's Fury) those Paragon skills will charge quicker than sword's 7-8 adrenaline (Blazing spear is 6, spear of redemption is 3, holy spear is 4, wild throw is 7, wearying spear is 3, cruel spear is 7) and you don't even need to worry about kiting, just miss/dodge. Hell, even Axe mastery has a handful of skills that have +19 or less: Agonizing chop, Axe Rake, Axe Twist, Critical Chop/Penetrating Blow/Penetrating Chop/Swift Chop/Whirling Axe/Cyclone Axe. It's just that Axe is known for Eviscerate +29 (used to be +38) followed by Executioner's Strike/Body Blow. Hammers are used for knockdowns, but other than Forceful Blow/Mighty Blow/Heavy Blow/Renewing Smash (PVE) they don't have more than +19 either. If it bothers you so much, you have Anthem of Envy (+20ish at moderate command) + "Find their Weakness!" (which is expensive but more + damage than any melee attack). The moment that Paragons get +38ish on attacks with no drawbacks like weakness (Wearying Spear) or insane cast time (Unblockable throw; Mighty Throw) then there's zero reason to run a Warrior or Dervish for their weapons, whose attack damages get +38 (Power Attack/Body Blow/Galrath Slash/Executioner's Strike) and +25 respectively (Victorious Sweep/Radiant Scythe with full energy/Zealous Sweep), Reap Impurities (+52), Pious Assault in PVE (+48). It hurts the warrior the most, honestly, since they already need cancel stances to switch groups effectively (whereas Dervishes can just use IMS+IAS). If you recall, rangers' attack skills were nerfed due to r-spike. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Mar 07, 2011 at 11:20 PM // 23:20.. |
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Mar 08, 2011, 07:32 PM // 19:32
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#42 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Guild: The Angelic Guard
Profession: P/
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re: rspike, I don't think anyone on gwguru would make the argument that rangers are overpowered in PvP *or* PvE. Anet has been quick to nerf paragons and rangers but they have allowed Shadow Form abuse to continue for years... what's going on with their balance team? what you say about bonus damage is true but I think you are missing the main reason why spears are lacking in PvE. certain spear skills deliver excellent damage and effects for their cost, for example Spear of Lightning, Vicious Attack, Wild Throw, Blazing Spear. However this is still not enough to make paragons outdamage any other weapon, even with 14+ spear mastery. Why? It is because other professions can attack faster, attack multiple times, have AoE damage and conditions, have primary attributes that increase damage (str, crit) and have self-buffing (signet of strength, critical eye, WotA, preparations). There's nothing the paragon can do about weapon speed or primary attribute but if some skills were changed then he would have more of a chance against the competition, even though he would still be an inferior damage dealer for all the reasons I already mentioned. as some common examples, consider jagged/ff/death blossom, hundred blades/whirlwind, vow of strength AoE damage builds, and splinter barrage. This is the competition, and paragon pales in comparison to them. I'm not saying that the paragon should be able to out-damage any melee profession... this is not possible for reasons I've already mentioned. however, I don't think it is unrealistic to expect the paragon to be on par with the ranger. |
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Mar 08, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12
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#43 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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Aggressive Refrain/Soldier's Fury makes spears just as fast. Except for Critical Agility and elite WoTA, sins don't have an IAS. Rangers have Lightning Reflexes and Never Rampage Alone basically unless you're investing in Beast Mastery or using a terrible elite (Expert's Dexterity) or forgoing a prep (Rapid Fire). Warriors must resort to Flail or Burst of Agression WE bars (Frenzy on a warrior is pretty difficult to do in PVE without a ER prot and/or cancel stance). Dervishes are broken at the moment with Heart of Fury /Pious Fury/Onslaught , but that's just because they got mega-buffed (not a word, I know). Dual Shot/Twin Moon Sweep/Sun& Moon Slash doesn't do +damage so I'm assuming you're counting stuff like EDA, 100B, Conjures, GDW, SoH, Preps. Then you need to count Anthem of Envy and stuff like that. There's nothing stopping you from going P/E for conjures. AOE damage is the only point of contention for other professions. The only non-damage conditions that are useful enough for a ranged character are cripple/blind/weakness, of dubious usefulness in PVE for killing things. Poison/Bleeding are laughable in PVE (~6-8DPS). Paragons can apply Deep wound (and burning, dazed, cripple, and bleeding), so I consider them fully capable. Dervishes only recently got Cracked armor. The Paragon running 2-3 attack skills instead of 3 to 5 on a warrior bar can still support the party due to not needing IMS (frees up 1 slot)... you can run 12+1+1 Spear, 9+1 Command, 9+1 Leadership or similar. Assassins and warriors tend to run 13 in primary attributes, so there's not nearly the same flexibility. Unless mobs are being instagibbed, autoattack damage applies *free* DPS. Fox Fangs + Death Blossom are the only damage skills in assassins' daggermastery that are on quick recharge with high +damage (Wild Strike + Golden Fox Strike too). +33 on Fox Fangs isn't much more than Paragons' +20s when you consider the +7-10 on base damage (although for HM PVE you could argue there's a difference). It's just that death Blossom is a dual attack so that's why +43s seem to be a big deal. Both of those skills are split for PvP. 100B isn't even worth comparing. Vow of Strength has it beat pretty much. 100B on its own without the Whirlwind attack PVE skill isn't doing much, it's similar to +13-15 or so on most mobs, +6 or 9 at worst (on my warrior in HM that's what I've seen). The only thing it has going for it is AOE and MoP/Barbs triggers. Splinter barrage is done better on a Rt/R or R/ and Rt/ combination anyway, so I don't see what you're getting at. The Ranger needs a significant Expertise investment unless a zealous bow is used with a decent sized enemy group and Ranger IASes suck with attack skills (plus they cost 10+energy except Heket's Rampage). Seems like what you're looking for is AOE (100B without AOE is pretty crap, Death Blossom, Whirlwind attack/Barrage are AOEs with medium +damage). Dragonslash is only high damage due to FGJ! recharging it. You could achieve similar results to Dragon slash single-target with Focused Anger/Soldier's Fury + FGJ! + Spear of Redemption/Holy Spear albeit for about half the +damage. If you have some way to curb the Weakness (the only malus) on Wearying Spear, there's your damage (3strikes of adrenaline with Soldier's Fury or Aggressive Refrain+Focused Anger/FGJ is easy). Recovery + -20% Weakness shield + Purifying Veil or something. If Paragon DPS is so crap, why were they run in last month's PVP mAT (in playoffs no less) by GN? http://www.gw-memorial.net/nav/b_mat_i.php?id=618 P.S. signet of strength is utter crap. Even Warriors would rather use I am the strongest, which is available to Paragons too. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Mar 08, 2011 at 11:00 PM // 23:00.. |
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Mar 08, 2011, 10:33 PM // 22:33
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#44 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada, B.C. Vancouver. aka.. amazing.
Guild: [Sith]
Profession: W/Me
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Just for the wins and stuff... I'm hitting about 80-100 DPS on my para. I'm using Conjure Frost on the weapon for bonus damage, and "Go For The Eyes" to activate Vicious Attack. Spear of Fury to charge Adren, then Stunning Strike to make it all happy. Couple that with I Am The Strongest... You can maintain a high DPS as a paragon. Get a GDW on that, and you've got a pretty solid damage dealer..
If you're going solo, take Sniper Support, Finish Him, or You Move Like a Dwarf as some added damage. If you have 2 para spear chuckin sob's, take GDW and keep it up on eachother for Mega damage awesome. Also... 7th and 8th slot are optional but I like AoS for the perks, and either Bladeturn Refrain, or Anthem of Envy. I hit around 125 damage as a max in HM with this bar. Average about 85-90 damage per spear. It's pretty solid, and it's fun. I run Sup Spear and Minor Command to boost stats. But it's irrelevant really... Para's are there for Buff's atm. Spear damage is not up to par to be considered a viable build. |
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Mar 09, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58
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#45 | |||||||||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Guild: The Angelic Guard
Profession: P/
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BTW one of the paragon builds I tested was P/E. It is not enough damage to keep up with the other weapons. What's worse, other professions can also load up Conjure and do even more. Quote:
If the ranger and paragon are supposed to be masters of condition spreading (as a perusal of their skill set might indicate) then they are quite poor at it compared to the new dervish. Quote:
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BTW I agree that signet of strength is pretty bad, but it's still more than the paragon has. Quote:
There's two other things I want to point out for other readers. #1) you are using PvE skills to make the paragon useful. I believe that the paragon should have better skills so that he can do well without having to use PvE skills, the way that Panic mesmers and SoS ritualists and assassins and dervishes and rangers are useful without relying on PvE skills. PvE skills make things better but no profession should require them in order to be useful. #2) "para's are there for buff's atm". This is only true for Save Yourselves (a warrior PVE skill) and There's Nothing To Fear (a paragon pve skill). If you want serious damage buffing you bring Orders, Mark of Pain, Splinter Weapon, and Strength of Honor, because nothing the paragon has can compete with them. This is wrong and it needs to change... paragons were supposed to be the best at attack buffing, based on what we can see of their skillset. GFTE, Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Flame, etc. are all decent but they are all much less effective than the competition, and that's the problem. I realize that this is a hopeless quest, but I want Anet to fix these imbalances and give Paragons something to do besides Imbagon. In fact I wouldn't mind if they change the skills around so that Imbagon becomes much weaker than it is now... but first they have to improve the paragon skills so that they are competitive. |
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Mar 09, 2011, 06:22 PM // 18:22
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#46 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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Rangers' IAS "have it easy", but the only one that sees use is Lightning Reflexes which is on 1/3 uptime. WoTA is gimping your elite, critical agility takes a PVE slot. Bows only have a handful of skills with multi-hit (Dual shot, Forked arrow, triple shot, Barrage, volley). Since they attack roughly 1/3 slower even with the fastest refire rate, and preps other than Glass arrows add about +10 at best, I'd say it's fair. Compare Burning Arrow with Blazing Spear and tell me that Paragons aren't better. Multi-hit (i.e. dual shot) isn't what is hurting the Paragon. It's the lack of buffs (preps) and AoE. If you run Anthem of Envy+GFTE it's pretty much a damage boost. Without Barrage and balled mobs, Rangers' damage fails hard due to attack speed. So as I was saying, all you're doing is arguing for more AoE on Paragons (Like Mesmers complained about before). In Hard mode, multi-hit means you do double of autoattack damage without critical that's really rather low: at most 19 or so on 100 armor assuming 15>50 customized and 26 on 80 armor caster mobs. Double strikes with critical from sins do an extra 33 on 60 armor or 17 on 100 compared to one strike. Hardly anything to write home about in Hard mode. I ran eviscerate+ body blow +whirlwind on my pve warrior over 100B most of the time when I used to play it. Why? I'd rather spike a target for 200 in HM than do a pitiful 7-15 damage PBAoE. The only difference is if you run EBSOH (dumb if your team kills fast due to recharge) or MoP (on a hero that's pretty hard to do). Even with barbs, unless your target is dying in over 10 seconds then it's still less than +38*2 + 100 deep wound. 100B has no access to deep wound unless you waste 2 slots on sever-gash. The most popular PVE builds atm are single target high damage: SoS, AP callers. If autoattack DPS is irrelevant then we'd run Demonic Flesh blood necros with Dark Pact, Touch of Agony/Wallow's Bite, or Blood of the aggressor. It's 40+ damage armor ignoring after all. In fact, with SoH and conjures, autoattacks do matter because they are about 1/4 to 1/3 of the damage. SoH is the only one Paragons can't use anyway. TBH if someone is going for pure spike they'd run A/P with sundering weapon on midline or some sort of caster like E-surge+MindWrack+Shatter Delusions or ShellShock+Invoke. The 2 Paragons apply non-kitable pressure from spear DPS and can swap targets on the fly when the enemy prot monk puts up Guardian/Shielding Hands. The dominant builds are all pressure. Spears have non-kitable, target swapping goodness. Hence why warriors and Dervishes spear things until they can get in melee range to build adrenaline. If anything, as before, all I think you're suggesting is Paragon should have AoE skills and SoH + Dervishes need a nerf. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Mar 09, 2011 at 06:51 PM // 18:51.. |
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Mar 09, 2011, 06:25 PM // 18:25
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#47 | ||
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2009
Guild: TGB
Profession: W/
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Para buffs do not need to compete with anything if they're decent enough, which they are. Why? Because there is no mutual exclusivity. Splinter Weapon competes with GDW. Orders compete with Conjure (and competed with the old AoHM). But para buffs definitely DO NOT compete with anything at all. It would be ridiculous for someone to say SoH competes with Orders or GDW, since people would just ask: "why are you not bringing all of em already?  " The same thing can be said about para stuff.Now, why are the Paragon buffs "weaker"? Simply because they are chugging spears at the same time. +1 platform to be buffed. You can say that a necro can also chug spears, but we both know that the Paragon will chug many, many more spears while having higher base dmg, which makes them a more "proper" platform. I also disagree with the "insignificance" of autoattack dmg. It's free, therefore it's there. Bringing a skill that causes bleeding may be ineffective due to its low DPS, but autoattacks do not waste your bar space in any way, hence their low DPS should not be an issue. Fact: multiple sources of free low DPS = high DPS  Play a minion master and you'll see.Quote:
You're basically claiming that 120 DPS is not better than 100 DPS (random numbers here), because 20 DPS can be easily out-healed. As things are now, the only reason people prefer melees for DPS is SoH. There is no strong reason to buff Para buffs. What the Para does need however, is a Motivation rework. On AoE: if you're not balling it's not very significant (it depends on the area ofc). If you're balling, you're better off running some gimmicky 100b + MoP anyways. |
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Mar 09, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18
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#48 | ||||||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Guild: The Angelic Guard
Profession: P/
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re: rangers, even if we ignore the beast mastery skills we still have Expert's Dexterity, Rapid Fire, and Lightning Reflexes. The first two are (nearly) permanent IAS with no drawbacks, the latter can have its duration doubled with Dwarven Stability so it's still a good option. All this is missing the point though, with sufficient multi-attack skills at your disposal you don't really need IAS. Splinter Barrage doesn't normally use it or need it, 100blades/Whirlwind/MoP doesn't need it, Jagged/FF/DB doesn't need it. Dervishes didn't really need it before or after the update since their scythe attacks are delivering multiple attacks by default and they have faster-than-normal attacks besides... never mind all the new AoE stuff they have now. The multi-attack skills allow one to get many hits in a small amount of time and that is what matters the most. People bring IAS to get more hits in less time but with multi-attack skills the effect is even greater. For example... Bow with +33% IAS might go from 2s down to 1.5s, so my ranger could shoot 4 arrows in 6 seconds with a fast IAS. However with Volley I can shoot the same 4 arrows in 2 seconds or 12 arrows in 6 seconds with no IAS at all. Quote:
re: dual shot, forked arrow, etc. I will make the argument that the lack of such skills does hurt the paragon... as I pointed out above, dual attacks and skills like Dual Shot, S&M slash, Twin Moon Sweep, etc. are great because they always do at least twice the damage of normal attacks, regardless of whether anything is balled up. More attacks in less time = win. re: "only a few attack skills"... it doesn't take many attack skills to make a big difference. Barrage, Volley, Whirlwind and Death Blossom are all spammable and they make a huge difference to their respective professions. Quote:
Strength of Honor favors melee because ranged attackers can't use it... and melee attackers already do more damage than the ranged attackers, why imbalance this further? I don't recall suggesting that SoH be nerfed but you raise a good point. I don't think dervishes need nerfing, I have been enjoying playing my dervish since the update. They can deliver massive amounts of AoE damage with the right builds and that is fine, imo they were always meant to be crowd control melee... the scythe does this inherently without even considering the added damage from skills. And warrior and assassin have AoE damage too so they aren't left out in the cold. Quote:
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People prefer melee because it has strong multi-attack capability, which translates to much more damage in less time. SoH only adds to this since the bonus damage applies to each and every attack. Lastly I will make the argument that AoE damage is always important, it isn't hard to get 2-3 foes together in PvE, even with no special effort made to ball things up. Casters will naturally bunch up together and melee will bunch up as well (usually right in your face, lol). |
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Mar 09, 2011, 11:23 PM // 23:23
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#49 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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I still think you overrate dual attacks. See what I wrote above.
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Motivation needs a rework, in fact I posted suggestions this or last week on the official wiki. But spear damage cannot be suddenly pumped to have AoE and splash of 6 or 8 leadership with 11+ command/11+ motivation. That's broken, since every other class is pushing major points (6+ attributes) in energy management (Soul reap, inspiration) or stuff like strength, expertise, or critical strikes. If some skill like Holy Spear was made to hit 1 extra target depending on every 2 ranks of leadership maybe. Have you tried wearying spear with soldier's fury + conjure? That'd probably push numbers if you have recovery on a N/Rt and a -20% weakness shield or something. And Mesmers were overbuffed tbh. 100+ armor ignoring damage on 5-10 cooldown (6 every 10 if you run keystone sig) is pretty lame when 100+ AOE elemental stuff is on 9+ cooldown. |
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Mar 10, 2011, 12:01 AM // 00:01
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#50 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2009
Guild: TGB
Profession: W/
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http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/1...heroteam2c.jpg 3 physicals is about the minimum to justify Orders, and melee AI is horrible. You can ofc sub Vicious Attack for Volley here (I still haven't tested bow para heroes). This is what I would run on a generic caster, if I was too lazy to figure out something to synergize better with my own build: http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1221/caster1.jpg Paras earned their place in both 
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Mar 10, 2011, 08:45 PM // 20:45
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#51 | ||||||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Guild: The Angelic Guard
Profession: P/
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secondly, if you have melee at all you would probably be better off with more melee and an SoH monk... more damage and more condition/hex removal too. your warrior has both whirlwind attack and cyclone axe so he can deliver big damage with SoH and Splinter. The paragons can't deliver on the same level, at least not with spears. re: bow paragons, I have tested them quite a bit and they work great. It's a bit tragic that paragons are more effective using another profession's weapon (and one that attacks more slowly at that). but using the bow allows the paragon to get multiple attacks with volley or barrage, which means multiplying base damage, multiplying buff damage, and multiplying adrenaline gain. win/win/win, even if the attack speed is slightly slower, the number of targets hit is usually much greater. (4-13 targets hit in 6 seconds, vs. a constant 5 hits with spear) http:://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Kway Quote:
 re: dual attacks the key issue is not how much weapon damage the dual attack delivers but how much buff damage it delivers. In other words Dual Shot may do 25% less base damage per arrow but that is not really important if I have +50 damage and Splinter Weapon applying to each arrow on top of the base damage. Stated in a different way, dual attacks have the effect of doubling your damage output, and multi-attack skills like Whirlwind and Barrage can do even more. With 33% IAS you can attack ~50% faster than normal but with dual attacks you can attack 100% faster than normal. Assassins are probably in the best position to take advantage of this because of the recharge on Death Blossom, but Warriors (or /W) aren't far behind because Whirlwind can charge very quickly if it is hitting multiple targets. Dervishes get to hit multiple targets without any skills at all so they can deliver huge damage. Ranger does well too because Volley and Barrage can hit so many and because they are spammable. Quote:
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Mar 10, 2011, 10:46 PM // 22:46
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#52 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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unless you're running high energy shouts, you don't need that much. The weakness bit on Wearying spear with Recovery + Clarity rune + -20% weakness shield will drop to negligible levels. (5 seconds base time, -20% shield, -20% rune, -40 to -50% recovery) The only difference between this and a normal setup is you swap your shield to -20% weakness. TBH rather than using the conjure if you bring orders it's less hassle. I got ~60 or so DPS running wearying spear + GFTE + spear of lightning + vicious attack + conjure (with recovery hero). And since conjures, preps and SOH with multi-hit skills/dual attacks are the only things melee in theory will have advantage over Paragons I'd say forget the conjures. Last edited by LifeInfusion; Mar 10, 2011 at 11:21 PM // 23:21.. |
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Mar 10, 2011, 10:54 PM // 22:54
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#53 | ||
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: May 2009
Guild: TGB
Profession: W/
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If the player was a ranger or para, would you give me the cookie and say the para heroes have earned their place in the team? (I take it as a good sign that you haven't commented on the caster team, hehe) Quote:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5582/dervphysway.jpg The derv hero builds are hastily thrown together, just to give an idea of what they're supposed to do. Erfshakurr wars, Locust's Fury sins would make good choices too. The SoS/resto is sadly still there, as we can all agree it's just that good. However, if you wish it gone, some MoP could be put in its place. I do feel that, while MoP synergizes greatly with VoS, in non-ball situations its use is erratic at best, even when micro'ed. Splinter Weapon can ofc be replaced by GDW on the player's bar. Last edited by Haggis of Doom; Mar 10, 2011 at 11:01 PM // 23:01.. |
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Mar 11, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08
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#54 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Guild: The Angelic Guard
Profession: P/
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I realize that it may come across like I am bashing paragons. I am not. I love paragons, my main is a paragon, he is GWAMM and 50/50 in the hall of monuments. So I have spent quite a lot of time playing paragon, and my opinions are based on a lot of experience. What I want is for paragons to be able to do well at any of their roles, which to my understanding is the following: Offense: Spear mastery for direct damage and physical attack buffing for indirect damage. Spear mastery is okay in PvP but weak in PvE because the paragon has no multi-attack capability or self buffing and all of their IAS skills give them caster level armor. Physical attack buffing is much weaker than the other professions, see below for proof. Grade: C Defense: This includes skills like Stand Your Ground, They're On Fire, Angelic Bond, Defensive Anthem, etc. Defensive skills for paragons are generally good though some are fairly useless (Bladeturn Refrain, Angelic Protection, Brace Yourself) and some have been nerfed into uselessness. The PvE skills TNTF and SY outshine anything in this category but that's to be expected. Grade: B Support: Everything in Motivation plus miscellaneous skills like Hexbreaker Aria and Incoming/Fallback. These have generally been nerfed into uselessness. Aside from Incoming/Fallback the finales are the only decent skills here because they become stronger with shout frequency, so teams with multiple paragons get the most benefit. Other than these the skills are too weak and their recharge is much too long. Grade: F re: attack buffing, consider the math. Anthem of Envy @ 15 gives +25 damage to one attack. Can be used every 8 seconds (roughly) with normal adrenaline gain under IAS... 6s to gain adrenaline, 1s to activate, 3/4s aftercast. Also, I'm being very generous with the paragon, as having 15 command is highly unlikely... unlike other professions the paragon will usually be in a 3 way attribute split. Perhaps 11/10/10 plus runes. Order of Pain @ 15 gives +16 damage to *every* attack. In six seconds this could be at least 16x6 = 96 damage per character that benefits from it. This is already 4x better than Anthem of Envy, and the advantage is even greater with multi-attack skills like Barrage and Whirlwind attack as well as most any assassin or dervish build. Strength of Honor @ 15 gives +25 damage to *every* attack. In 6 seconds this is already 150 bonus damage, which is 6x better than Anthem of Envy. SoH damage also multiplies when you have multi-attack skills, dual attacks, scythes, etc. But wait! What about Anthem of Flame? It gives 3s burning and can be used every 10 seconds, so this translates to +42 damage (14x3) for each affected character. This is probably better than Anthem of Envy, but some foes are not affected by burning and the burning has no effect if the target is already burning. Also, this can only be used every 10 seconds, and Orders/SoH can exceed 42 damage in 2-3 hits. Over the entire 10 seconds they will provide several times more damage than Anthem of Flame. But wait! What about Go For The Eyes! This skill is great and it really has no equivalent in other professions. GFTE has no activation time so it doesn't hurt the paragon's DPS, instead it *increases* DPS, and it doubles as energy management. win/win/win. I consider GFTE the best of the attack buffs but it's still not enough to compete with Orders/SoH. I'm not going to get into Splinter Weapon, Mark of Pain, etc. because their damage depends on number of adjacent targets... but as you can see from the math above, the physical attack buffs from the other professions are several times stronger than what the paragon can provide so it is no wonder that these other professions are preferred over the paragon in this role. Last edited by Khomet Si Netjer; Mar 11, 2011 at 04:53 PM // 16:53.. |
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Mar 12, 2011, 12:56 AM // 00:56
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#55 |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the midline
Profession: E/Mo
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How do you account for the fact that Anthems are unstrippable, trigger finales/refrains, and can't be shattered/interrupted by spell interrupts other than power block/drain/leech/spike?
Orders also require an investment in some sort of HP return, since 17% HP every 6 seconds is steep. You can't do anything else when pumping orders for the most part because you use it on recharge if you want it to be max damage. Command is also a better attribute than Blood, at least for PVE. Blood has a bunch of vampiric stuff and blood ritual/blood is power/dark fury/blood bond/Spoil Victor. SoH on the other hand requires energy management if you are to put it on 2-3 melee. N/Mo, Mo/ blessed signet, etc. Smiting is also pretty lame for the most part. You have RoJ, reversal of damage, smite hex, smite condition, castigation signet for energy. Anthem of envy also triggers on spirits; it's not something you have to build around, you just slap it on unlike Orders/SoH. It's rather easy to push +20 damage on Anthem of Envy. You can argue for anthems not to have aftercast, I posted a suggestion on GW wiki for that. However, saying that the (offensive) anthems are completely useless is pushing it. |
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Mar 13, 2011, 09:36 AM // 09:36
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#56 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: May 2006
Profession: N/
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Sigh. Alright, here goes:
Paragon's are more consistent but less potent. They will put out a more consistent amount of damage that is harder to disrupt (like any ranged vs melee instance). Furthermore, melee classes are (and have always been) the damage kings in this game. Why is it fair to expect a Paragon to output the same DPS as a warrior without any of the drawback? Is it really balanced to give a Paragon a ranged powernuke that they can pop off immediately every time a group is balled, where a Warrior or Dervish has to position themselves? Paragon's sacrificed their potential for massive AoE damage in favor of Party Buffs. It would be like making a thread in the Warrior section complaining that the only party protection they offer is Save Yourselves and Protectors Stance with no ability to increase team damage. Each class performs a slightly different role. With that said, I do think Paragons may need a tiny nuke here and there, as well as instant "yell" time on many more of their skills, but I feel, for the most part, that they are performing their role very well. |
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Mar 15, 2011, 03:26 AM // 03:26
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#57 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: guildhall
Guild: [DETH]
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with orders you do need to build a team around it, cant use avatars and gain a advantage :/ paragons buffs do pretty much work for whatever damage mod, damage type altering skill being used by your group. plus enchants can be a good or bad thing.
i suspect the much desired barrage type elite for spears isnt in there because of adrenaline gain, which is a shame. would make a great pve skill
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Mar 15, 2011, 03:38 PM // 15:38
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#58 | |||||||||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Guild: The Angelic Guard
Profession: P/
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Quote:
Shouts, Anthems, Weapon Spells, Orders, and the new Flash Enchantments fall into a new category of skills that are mostly unstrippable. In the case of Orders or Flash Enchantments you can strip them but since they are reapplied almost instantly it is pointless. Enchant stripping is only useful for long-recharge enchantments. Granted, Strength of Honor is strippable, and its recharge time and energy cost are long enough that stripping is an inconvenience... but people still take it because it is much stronger than anything the paragon can offer. Quote:
Blood has health gain built into the same attribute! Besides that, having a monk throw WoH on you every 15 seconds is not any great burden. Quote:
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Otherwise... necromancer and ritualist and monk win hands down. Quote:
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You should be able to work either of these into a physical team very easily. Quote:
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Mar 23, 2011, 03:07 AM // 03:07
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#59 |
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Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Poor Khomet, all alone. But I agree with you. Paragons are woefully underpowered.
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Mar 23, 2011, 09:16 PM // 21:16
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#60 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2010
Guild: [Pink]
Profession: P/
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Overall, I agree that paragons are underpowered. I am fine with the spear damage, as I am happy with the amount of damage I can pump out with a spear. What I want is to be able to actually support the party with skills besides SY and Tntf. For a support profession, one would think there would be some useful support skills...
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